UPDATE: Finally added YouTube video. The CNN link wasn’t working because CNN thinks that they can control every nuance of their content when there are things like YouTube and Google Video around.
No matter what your views on faith/religion are (and it’s not hard to figure mine), this is a spectacular display of talent.
Is god speaking to her? Has she really visited heaven and is now recreating her visions thereof?
I’m thinking no. What I feel we have here is a true prodigy, or someone who can demonstrate mastery or profound expertise in a field normally undertaken by adults. Incredible neuroplasticity, better cerebral bloodflow, who knows.
Regardless, her talent is amazing. Give it a look.
Technorati Tags: genius, art, music, prodigy, faith, atheism, christian, science
102 responses so far ↓
honestpoet // December 17, 2006 at 12:28 am
I tried to check it out, but the link’s broken for me. It says at CNN “page not found.”
Jeff Ventura // December 17, 2006 at 8:55 am
honest — yeah, I’m having the same problem. CNN has done this to me before, and frankly, that’s what I tend not to link to their PipeLine video stuff.
I’ll see if I can get a new one working.
star // January 19, 2007 at 4:35 am
I am having the same problem & I really want to see this.
Jeff Ventura // January 19, 2007 at 9:37 am
star — go to cnn.com and search for 12-year old art prodigy. You’ll find it.
thestatusjoe // January 19, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Jeff, I think I found it on Google video. Feel free to delete this comment if it’s not what you’re talking about — or embed it if it is.
Tolkien // January 25, 2007 at 9:57 pm
Joel 2:28
And afterward,I will pour out my spirit on all people.Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your old men will dream dreams,your young men will see vision.
Thats all
Jeff Ventura // January 26, 2007 at 7:21 am
joe — thanks for the tip. I just embedded the YouTube version.
Joe // January 26, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Sure thing. Cool link.
Trainwrecka // January 29, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Wow! That is amazing… I would say your faith is that of an atheist. Am I right? Not trying to offend you - you just said it wouldn’t be hard to figure out. I’ve only read this post and am guessing. I’m a Christian, but I pretty much agree with you that this girl is more of a prodigy than having chit chats with the Man upstairs. — Either way, enjoy the traffic cause I’m linking this story on my site.
twibe » Blog Archive » 12-year old Art Prodigy // January 29, 2007 at 9:24 pm
[...] Graceful Flavor] Share and Enjoy:These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover [...]
Jeff Ventura // January 29, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Train — I am an atheist, yes. No offense taken.
Thanks for the link and comments. Come back often.
fifthdecade // February 4, 2007 at 12:34 am
Wow - an Idiot Savant who is no idiot! Very interesting. The pictures look like photos though, as if she copies them - not that that makes her any less talented just slightly less creative. One heck of a better artist than me though!
Realistic Fascade // February 5, 2007 at 8:50 am
Actually, she looks pretty damn rich to me, which makes this very plausible.
Exclusive top-notch art lessons + natural art aclivity for art = This. It’s a nice talent though.
baghdad // February 7, 2007 at 11:39 pm
very nice
who knows there are many ways to do it !!!)
children at this age have tremendous abilities, and energy and like sponges; are welling to absorb!. No doubt she is talented but as you see the studio+huge eisle+all expensive oil paint, plus some tutors and special attention= this unusual talent…
very impressive
p.s (I agree with fifthdecade on the faces being too realistic like photos perhapres photo transfer with acetone
Patty // February 9, 2007 at 2:20 pm
As a young child many years ago, I too had a close encounter with God and I too was given the gift of painting having my first showing in Kindergarten. I was forced to “get real” on finding a profitable occupation as a young woman, leaving my artistry behind. I have painted off and on over the years, but now I have reolized, if God gives you a gift and you don’t use it, it will gather dust and even slip away. This young lady is only following what scripture (God) wants of all of us.
Patty
Anonymous // February 13, 2007 at 3:29 pm
d
Anonymous // February 13, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Regardless of what happens today at the end of my day I will be one day closer to heaven. I’m already bought with a price because I put my faith and trust in Christ Jesus. Romans 10: 9-13
Further, logically there are no atheists because you would have to be God, (all knowing), to come to the conclusion that there is no God.
The creation around leaves all men without an excuse.
Love is a choice. To choose not to love is evil. For God to be love and loving he had to allow choice. “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul, or what will he trade in exchange for his soul?” What have you chosen?
“God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son”. Choose Jesus today, ask Him to pay the price you can not pay for your sins, “all have fallen short of the glory of God.” Ask Jesus to save you so that you can inherit eternal life and share His greatest gift …love.
honestpoet // February 13, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Egads. How you can speak about logic and cite that silly book is beyond me.
You can choose to believe there are no atheists, but we’d be very surprised to learn that we do not exist.
Jeff Ventura // February 13, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Anonymous — I don’t tell you how to interpret the Bible, and you don’t tell me I don’t exist as an atheist. Sound good?
Debbie Mlejnek // February 16, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Bless you my dear for sharing your God-given gift with us. I have ALS (Lou Gehrigs Disease) and will be going to the glorious heaven you portray so well, in the near future. Thank you for giving me a glimpse!
Sunny // February 17, 2007 at 5:22 am
She is for real. I’ve met her, she lives here in Idaho and my friend featured her work at a gallery in downtown Boise for a month. She is very authentic and genuine. No, her family did not have money, they were actually quite poor, she was a self taught artist. Yes, she did get models for her paintings. Akiane has seen the New Earth, she has been there. She has a greater vision, one most adults cannot grasp because they have forgotten. I believed myself an atheist most of my life, but have now defined and come to know my “infinite source” for myself, and that relationship is very personal. My understanding may not be exactly the same as Akiane’s , but I know she has a deep connection and relationship with the divine, there is no question in my mind. Her poetry is truly incredible, even she has said she is unsure of the deeper meaning at times, it just flows through her. I look forward to meeting Akiane’s brothers, especially the one that is yet to be born! Akiane is also featured in the film, Indigo Evolution, that is where I first learned about her.
Rik // February 22, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Jesus did not have long hair. Only fallen angels had long hair. Her perceptions are influenced by her training in religion. She is a great artist though. No doubt about that. The God of the Bible has chosen the people of Israel for his covenant. To the exclusion of the rest of the world. Hard to accept but true. The Bible proves this out. Whether you want to accept it or not. Most people do not read their Bibles. They accept what the preacher says as Gospel and choose not to look things up for themselves.
Jeff Ventura // February 22, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Rik: How do you know Jesus did not have long hair? How do you know only “fallen angels” had long hair? How does the Bible *prove* anything out?
Those questions notwithstanding, yes, she is an amazing artist.
honestpoet // February 22, 2007 at 7:39 pm
I’m constantly amazed the way people try to use that monstrous work of fiction to “prove” what it says.
Here’s a tip to Christians who would try to discuss things with atheists: we don’t consider the Bible to be any kind of authority.
Jeff Ventura // February 22, 2007 at 10:37 pm
honest: thank you for saying what I’ve been thinking all along. You nailed it.
SG // February 23, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Rik, you’re right. People’s perceptions ARE influenced by what they see. She is a great artist…yet, she did not get the skin color of Jesus correct. But her other pictures are really beautiful. She has a real gift.
As for the athiests…you’re right, no one can even expect you to think of the Bible as an authority, even if it is. That’s not a lifestyle I understand but….I’m sure many are praying for you all. For eveyone-read, learn, grow! You’ll (we) see the truth one day. For some, seeing HIM will mean Heaven, for others….YOU KNOW! Get right while you can!!!
L O V E Y A ‘ L L ! ! ! ! lol
damewigginsoflee // February 23, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Perhaps i’ve taken one too many psych classes, but ummm, is there a male figure in this girl’s life?
Sorry, i can’t help it. Please don’t stone me.
honestpoet // February 23, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Too funny with the stoning bit. I think you have to say “Yahweh” in vain or vote Democrat or something for that, though.
Nikki C-McGoff // February 25, 2007 at 2:20 am
Indeed she’s a good artist, but I highly doubt this whole “God” thing. A glitch in her brain, perhaps? I think it would benefit better to get a CT Scan and see exactly how her mind functions. Or possibly, this is what happens when you don’t give kids a TV. ;]
Funny comment about us atheists not existing, I thought I was here all along.
pcorneau // February 26, 2007 at 10:47 am
Wondering; why do you find it so hard to believe in God? Do you really belive that all life and all nature on this planet is an accident.
Jeff Ventura // February 26, 2007 at 11:13 am
pcorneau: two things –
1. Why DO you believe in God? I think the onus is on you to explain why you believe in something that defies every possible aspect of logic and cannot be proven,
and
2. Life and nature on this planet are by no means an accident. I believe we got here through evolution, natural selection, and adaptation. I do not believe that we were simply created or are a product of “intelligent design.”
WS // February 26, 2007 at 3:31 pm
heres a site for you all to check out..it is what it is. Its all about a choice and faith in that choice based on something. We all die one day…you either belive that thats it and you go in a hole..forever…or something elsse happens thats a little nicer. The book of “fiction” you reference has been around a pretty long time, so Im gonna give it a little more credence than the fiction being produced today. We dont make God be who we want, He is who He is. period. I think He said in fact, I AM who I AM.
anyways have fun on your discovery if you are looking. only some will find the truth..this we knopw, just like everywhere. take it easy
diggingfortruth.tripod.com/
Nikki C-McGoff // February 27, 2007 at 1:42 am
Just because the book is old doesn’t mean it’s absolutely correct. It’s also not nice to tell others what is the “truth,” because religion is a subjective choice. I choose to not have a religion. We should respect each other’s choices rather than telling the other one that they’re wrong.
Lynn // March 1, 2007 at 10:03 am
Akiane does in fact have a father, for whomever asked the question above. He and her mother are married and the entire family is under the same roof.
Secondly, I always find it interesting that athiests constantly complain about Christians believing the Christian way is the “only” way to something the athiest doesn’t even believe in; and the biggest plea of the athiest is that we all should respect each others’ beliefs or non-beliefs. Yet, it is always the athiest that ridicules what Christians hold most dear, Jesus and the Bible. I see more ridicule coming from the athiests than I ever see coming from the Christians.
I just wanted to share that observation. Thanks.
geekrawk // March 1, 2007 at 4:20 pm
your link to “neuroplasticity” has an error.
Jeff Ventura // March 1, 2007 at 5:09 pm
geekrawk: thanks. I fixed it.
honestpoet // March 1, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Well, Lynn, we may call you deluded, but at least we don’t threaten you with hell. Or beheading. (Of course, those are the Muslims, not the Christians; Christians just say they don’t trust us, as if belief in some daddy-in-the-sky is the only reason for morality.)
Jeff Ventura // March 1, 2007 at 5:14 pm
honest: you hit a point rarely mentioned — that religion DOES NOT EQUAL morality, nor IS IT THE BASIS FOR morality.
Good point. I’m happy to see someone mention that.
honestpoet // March 1, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Considering how much immoral behavior is committed by religious people (not only the folks in the pews, but the ones at the pulpit, too), I’m not sure why or how any of them try to justify the idea that religion has ANYTHING to do with morality.
Jeff Ventura // March 1, 2007 at 8:04 pm
honest: when’s the last time you saw an atheist riot? One atheist faction warring against another? Atheists ostracizing one another because one doesn’t believe in exactly the same brand of atheism as the other?
Exactly.
honestpoet // March 1, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Well, I have seen atheists bicker, but it never goes past that.
You put a bunch of men in a forum, they’re going to bicker about SOMEthing. (Yes, yes, I’m being sexist. HA!)
Jeff Ventura // March 1, 2007 at 8:34 pm
honest: I agree. You’re a jerk. Let’s bicker.
Oh, and my view of there being no God is way better than yours.
Lynn // March 2, 2007 at 7:37 am
I don’t see Christians riot either, in the name of Christianity anyway. I’m sure there are Christians fighting in war right now, but I’m certain there are athiests as well. The war we are fighting is not a religious one. The muslims may have declared holy war, but we are not fighting the war as Christians. We are fighting as Americans, somehow representative of the rest of the world, to end terrorism.
And yes, there are immoral people in all walks, including athiesm (sp?). Just as all athiests are not immoral, nor are all Christians.
honestpoet // March 2, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Lynn, obviously it’s unfair to generalize about anyone. But the religious have claimed the moral high ground, without basis, for too long, while statistically it’s been shown that pedophiles are more trusted in America than atheists.
(And btw, we hardly represent the rest of the world. Most of the rest of the world, actually, considers US their greatest threat.)
Lynn // March 2, 2007 at 7:31 pm
I understand that, which is why I said “somehow”…..in effort to convey that “we” fight with such intention, or that’s the spin we put on it anyway.
Most Christians I know don’t claim the moral high ground. They struggle to do their best just like everyone else. I guess it’s all in who you choose to associate with. I don’t associate with snotty people whether they are Christian, athiest, Jewish, or whatever. But so far the athiests I meet are far more in-your-face than any other group I’ve met. Just my experience so I thought I’d share.
honestpoet // March 2, 2007 at 11:06 pm
You ought to visit my city. Here they threaten us with billboards with hell-flames twenty feet high.
Not a poetry fan // March 3, 2007 at 10:45 am
Jeff, to your point;
1. Why DO you believe in God? I think the onus is on you to explain why you believe in something that defies every possible aspect of logic and cannot be proven
I’d like an explanation of the logic that says we came from nothing. What did we evolve from? When we track back at some point something had to come from nothing. Please provide the proof of what that is and I’ll send back the Nobel Prize. You can’t, as religion cannot provide proof of God. Why does any view have to be better than the other.
I think the onus is on anyone who feels they know enough to attack someone else’s view, Christian, Athiest, whatever.
To sumarize, in case I lost you, you don’t know any better than anyone else so shut the fuk up and stop being such a narcissistic ass.
Jeff Ventura // March 3, 2007 at 11:14 am
poetry fan: I don’t believe in God. You might want to read a bit closer.
As for evolution, it’s been proven. It’s no longer even debatable. That’s where we came from, and it’s far more palpable than two people, a snake, and some fruit in a garden.
If you don’t “believe” in evolution, then you may as well not believe in gravity. I can’t help you there.
Funny how you get so angry at me, call me narcissistic and an ass, for expressing my beliefs about religion. If you’re a Christian, is that how you’re supposed to treat others?
I don’t attack your views, but I will gladly debate them. That’s healthy and normal.
It’s uncanny how many Christians can’t have that debate without personalizing it or attacking those who hold contrary opinions on a personal level.
Lynn // March 3, 2007 at 1:06 pm
“It’s uncanny how many Christians can’t have that debate without personalizing it or attacking those who hold contrary opinions on a personal level.”
See, that’s what I mean. I’ve never been engaged with a conversation with an athiest to where this was not true but in reverse of how you state it. The Christian is made to feel stupid, idiotic, or just plain crazy for believing in something “on faith.”
Jeff Ventura // March 3, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Lynn: if you’re debating something like religion, you’re up against reason and science. Those two sides oppose one another. The problem with such a debate is that there isn’t much of a rational middle ground. At the end of the debate — assuming one day there WILL be an end — one side is really going to win, and other will lose. That much we can agree on.
I have no problem with a civil debate on the topic. It’s emotionally charged and can turn south very quickly. In your experience, you have had people get personal with you, and that’s wrong — that’s just basic human decency and respect towards one another. I agree with you that when a debate or discussion or whatever gets personal, then it’s best not to have the it at all. That’s why the old axe is still somewhat true for most people: don’t discuss religion or politics with anyone, including family. It can just get nasty too quickly.
Thanks for your comments.
Not a poetry fan // March 4, 2007 at 10:26 am
Using reason and science no one can explain how it all began. Yes there is evolution but from what? No one knows, religious folks seem to BELIEVE everything came from God, Athiests seem to BELIEVE that there must be a scientific explanation. Neither side knows the answer. So please stop pretending you are argueing with facts when the reality is you are arguing a belief.
So I repeat from my prior post that you completely ignored because you have no answer, How did the first “thing”, whaterver it was, that we evolved from come to be?
Jeff Ventura // March 4, 2007 at 12:14 pm
poetry: science will be the first to admit it doesn’t know how the universe came to be. That’s a hallmark of science: it admits areas of investigation and inquiry. 20 years ago we had no idea how to slow the progress of AIDS; science admitted that. Today, we’re rich in progress. The same has happened in every conceivable area of scientific inquiry — what begins as a question leads to experimentation leads to hypothesis leads to theory. From this, humankind’s understanding of the natural world evolves.
Religion, on the other hand, claims to have all the answers. But its answers can’t be proven, which is awfully convenient. So instead of hanging life’s hard questions out there for hard work — great truths don’t come easy — everyone says, “Well since you can’t tell me how the universe began en route to evolution, you’re therefore wrong!”
Well, I can tell you this: just because science hasn’t answered every one of life’s big questions does not mean that religion steps in and saves the day. Science is constantly evolving, so if you engage yourself and the world around you and experiment and learn and discover, solutions come to pass. Not so with religion.
So if you’re going to tell me that Christianity provides the answers about the areas science cannot solve just yet, tell me: how come you don’t let Islam answer those questions for you? The Quaran has its version of the story. Why not Jainism? Buddhism? Mormonism? Hinduism? Every faith on the planet provides beginning scenarios for life on earth, so what makes yours correct?
Last thought: Let’s say I created a scientific hypothesis for the greater part of my life and it got strong acceptance. I was known for it. Suddenly, some university comes and disproves my hypothesis. I’m wrong. I’ve been wrong all of my life. What do I do as I scientist? I step up and shake the hands of those who proved me wrong, for I am not emotionally invested in my stance on things: I seek truth and progress, and if my colleagues help further that cause, even at personal intellectual expense, I applaud them.
High School Senior // March 4, 2007 at 5:33 pm
uhm…on the whole bible as fiction thing?…do you consider history books fiction?…because you should if you find the bible to be fiction…
hmm, did the egyptians really live under pharohs?…or where they aliens? i mean, all we have as proof is some silly hyrogliphics!!!…im sure everyone who drew those must have been STINKING LIARS!!!!…it was really ALIENS!!…O MY!
the bible has been around for a long time, and i believe if it was false, people would have given up on it as fiction when it was written(seeing as people living at that time would know wheather or not it was true)
im not saying its 100% reliable, because after all, it was written by men, and later translated by men, and men are flawed
plus…too a athiest, how does it sound more likely that, life exploded out of nothing(or colliding cosmic dust+lots of gravity), and we evolved from single celled organisms into complex beings, than, we were created from dust by GOD? both are equally plausible.
neither science nor religion can PROVE how life began, or whether or not there is or isn’t a God.
microevolution has been proven, not macro…thats why it is called the “theory of evolution”
most “christians” don’t follow the bible…the bible tells us to be loving, and other such things, not to fight, and treat people with other beliefs with disrespect. thats just what people do…a true christian should never force their beliefs on another, we can teach them, but we can’t give ultimatums of “Become a Christian or else…” thats not our place…sorry if you’ve been offended by a christian who was snobbish or rude, they weren’t following the bible, and they were being a bad representative
well, some of what i wrote might not exactly be in order, or make sense, but eh?…what can i say? i don’t know everything
honestpoet // March 4, 2007 at 11:43 pm
No, no one knows everything.
But you’ll know a lot more after college. I hope you learn about evolutionary biology. It’s really not at all hard to believe, once you understand it.
Good luck.
High School Senior // March 5, 2007 at 12:55 am
…im taking fire science and EMT courses…so i don’t think ill learn that
shades // March 5, 2007 at 10:38 am
I can only think there is a reason why those that witness this either in life or thru this video.
Heaven has just been more vividly embedded in my mind because of it.
VampD // March 5, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Is it me, or does Jesus look like the bastard child of David Copperfield and Barry Manilow?
Jeff Ventura // March 5, 2007 at 5:22 pm
VampD: he’s got Manilow’s eyebrows.
Back « World in Conflict // March 6, 2007 at 9:13 am
[...] & Conquer 3 : Tiberium Wars and Arsenal another time, but in the meanwhile do watch this interesting video of a 12-year-old art prodigy. That’s [...]
joshua // March 6, 2007 at 2:46 pm
LOL, I have know how idea how authentic this video is, or what this girls inspiration. But, neithr does anyone posting on here.
I do know one thing, if someone came to earth today, died, then “rose from the dead”, all the same conversations would be going on.
All things are possible // March 8, 2007 at 10:29 am
Why is it that one is right and the other is wrong? This little girl is very talented regardless if you are a believer or not. I will not defend either side because I feel that is a personal choice. That’s one of the best parts of being alive we all have a choice and guess what it’s not always black or white there are many shades of gray. Noone should be angry that people believe different….if we were all the same this would be a boring world to live in. Agree to disagree and love each other because of it not inspite of it. Bottom line this child has a great talent and is sharing it with the world. I personally am greatful. I am greatful and thankful for ALL of you.
pcorneau // March 8, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Science and Faith are not mutualy exclusive.
Dr. “Fritz” Schaefer is the Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia. He has been nominated for the Nobel Prize and was recently cited as the third most quoted chemist in the world. “The significance and joy in my science comes in the occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, ‘So that’s how God did it!’ My goal is to understand a little corner of God’s plan.” –U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 23, 1991.
pcorneau // March 8, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Jeff, proof of God’s existance can be found in the heart of a man whose life is changed by his faith. God is known, felt and experienced in the heart and soul not in the mind. I do not believe in religion, I believe in faith in God. I can not explain it, deny it or prove it. But I know what if feel. You can not prove love or see it with your eyes but you know love when it is shown to you.
kovaiputhalvan // March 9, 2007 at 6:25 am
Um, sorry. You can’t *prove* something that way.
Why are you so bothered if someone doesn’t believe in god?
Jeff Ventura // March 9, 2007 at 8:07 am
pcorneau: if my life is changed by understanding the natural world around me and finding beauty in nature and the wonder of life, is that God?
Someone who has faith // March 13, 2007 at 11:23 am
Can anyone prove there is truth?
Is truth subjective?
Is there right or wrong?
Who decides what is right or wrong?
If it is subjective, prove to me that we should respect others, choices, beliefs or rights. Or do you just FEEL it is right or true for YOU?
Do we go by popular opinion, or Laws to determin what is right. Remember Nazi Germany or the slave trade in the US. No amount of proof will convince a closed heart.
Study molecular bilology and see the thousand of things that happen, that cannot be explained away. The billions variables that had to happen for our solar system and life on earth to form is much hardere to believ was just chance than the idea of One all knowing, all powerfull and all loving God. I get the biggest kick out of the person who says oh it’s nature. Yeah thats right the rock and the tree did it.
Stiletto Girl // March 13, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Children are naturally tapped in to their inner divine before reality and responsibility and other people’s b.s. sets in. It is in all of us. If you open your heart and listen, you can find it again.
Listen to the wind, listen to your spirit. I do believe art and all that is beautiful comes from something higher and divine, hence divine inspiration. Although I am not Christian, I feel sorry for those who don’t believe in something higher and greater. Even though I have felt abandoned at key moments in my life, I still have faith in something greater.
honestpoet // March 13, 2007 at 12:34 pm
SWHF, what can’t be explained in biology? You may not understand how things work, but that doesn’t mean that no one does.
Stilleto Girl, just because someone doesn’t believe in god doesn’t mean that they don’t believe in something higher and greater. In fact, for someone who understands evolutionary biology, knowing that one is a full-fledged human being is a blessing, and knowing one’s place in the universe is even more amazing. To be an intrinsic part of creation, rather than a child of a sometimes-quite-neglectful heavenly father, is far more comforting.
Jeff Ventura // March 13, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Well said, HP.
pcorneau // March 13, 2007 at 12:57 pm
I am not botherd if some one does not believe in God.
Jeff, You ask; if my life is changed by understanding the natural world around me and finding beauty in nature and the wonder of life, is that God? I would answer, that is creation not the creator. It is great to have an understanding and appreaciation of nature and all it’s wonders but is another to have realtionship with the creator. I know you think this sounds crazy but is is real to me and I find much comfort in my faith. There are circumstances in life that science and knowledge can not fix but which faith can. Please understand. I do not intend to tell you that you are wrong in your beliefs or to argue or prove my beliefs. I am simply relating to you that I have personaly experienced things that reinforce my faith. For many Christians there is a desire to share this belief that has brought so much joy. All to often they in there zeal have affended others. For this Iam sorry.
Someone who has faith // March 13, 2007 at 3:50 pm
hp,
“You may not understand how things work, but that doesn’t mean that no one does.”
Thanks for making the point that just because you don’t understand God and how He works, doesn’t mean no one does. Before there was proof of the existance of atoms, did that mean atoms did not exist? God has put great limits on our intelligence, but none what so ever on our stupidity.
Stiletto Girl // March 13, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Don’t know why you’re getting defensive. Never said something higher and greater was God, now did I? Didn’t think so.
honestpoet // March 13, 2007 at 9:23 pm
You said, “Although I am not Christian, I feel sorry for those who don’t believe in something higher and greater.” That certainly implies that you believe that people who don’t believe in god don’t believe in something higher and greater. (Who’s being defensive here?)
SWHF, I do understand god and how he works. He’s a figment of the human imagination that has held us back for far too long.
Stiletto Girl // March 14, 2007 at 4:06 pm
For what it is worth, that is not what I was saying. Sorry it was taken that way.
honestpoet // March 14, 2007 at 8:59 pm
One needs to think well about what one says regarding this subject, to avoid such misunderstandings, I’m afraid. The charge as I read it has been leveled at atheists time and again, and we find it more than a little frustrating. We also are a little perplexed when a theist insists that we must be miserable and bitter without the idea of god’s love (apparently forgetting about all the lovely things on the planet, and the love that’s available from other humans, who, despite many indications to the contrary, are actually capable of loving very deeply).
Stiletto Girl // March 20, 2007 at 9:45 pm
I agree. Religion does screw with people’s mind. I am tired of people trying to make me feelg guilty for all the questionable things I love to do. Especially since I’m a libertine.
Coll B. Lue // April 1, 2007 at 6:11 am
An amazing prodigy! Wow, it’s like watching the video clipse of an angel born to this world to let us know that God is trying to communicate his world and words to us - the paintings of her spiritual beings are so vividly real and unlike our vision of the ‘holy’ beings that I ‘believe’ her visions are as she describes them - Not only that - her talent seems to expand to music - and her own being is self composed and graceful.
Katherine // April 5, 2007 at 8:25 am
Perhaps you will be of interest to read the views of someone far more intelligent, educated and renowned than any of us, yourself included Jeff.
No, insult intended. Just type in:
Meet the Phi Guy
Your choice // April 13, 2007 at 11:47 am
It’s incredible to see how christians and atheist are trying to prove their point. The truth of the matter is that everyone is going to share what they truly believe in and know that it’s a personal conviction. Their are alot of things we don’t have the answers to, why can’t we see the wind but we can feel it, why is light the abscence of darkness, why oh why? As much everyone try to say that it’s their opinion the truth is that there is only one thing to be said. It is not the christians who make people feel guilty it is yourselves, I know alot of people that are not of faith and they have high standards. It is easy to pin points the errors of the christians because it gives basis to condemn them, because we don’t want the truth and we think that they are supposed to be perfect, and that is far from the truth. Faith allows them to overcome and to try to become a better person. Atheist lives their lifes trying to proof that God is just a myth and that it’s in peoples imagination. As it may be it has been in peoples imagination for many years, that’s why it’s even in our bills. Let’s say their is no God, well than there must not be any evil either, for if their is good there must be bad.
Jeff, you could live your trying to prove that there is no God and Christians can’t proof that God does exist because you are not open to accept anything other than what you choose to believe. That is okay, your choice.
I do wonder, what if God does exist and we die and we nevered believed in him, what then torment for eternity.
But what if we lived a life -to the best humanly possible–believing in God, than we have gained everything.
The bottom line, it’s a choice ..you chose life or death either way, some people have to go somewhere.
honestpoet // April 13, 2007 at 3:10 pm
It’s the old lake of fire, eh?
This bit of mind poison sure does a number on you, doesn’t it?
Acknowledging that you’re a free, responsible person is the best thing you can do for your mental health (and your own morality — the responsible part is a real kicker). Embrace the fact that you’re a biological organism whose brain will turn to mush when you die and you’ll find that you live a better life and enjoy it more, too. There’s no need to fear hell, because there’ll be nothing left of you to experience it.
Atheists don’t live their lives trying to prove or disprove anything. (And btw, plenty of people understand why we feel the wind but can’t see it…your ignorance of that proves what?) Most of us actually spend our lives enjoying the people we love, enjoying and creating beauty, and making ethical choices because it’s the right thing to do for others and for ourselves (and not because we’re threatened by some invisible daddy with eternal damnation). Learn about biology and evolution and you’ll figure out that there’s actually a biological reward mechanism involved with altruism.
This world, here, now, offers plenty — love, challenges, adventure, beauty, friendship. I’ve yet to understand why so many people seem to be in a such a hurry to go to some imaginary place in the sky. What a waste of this one life.
Jeff Ventura // April 13, 2007 at 3:16 pm
honest: I’m going to hire you to handle this thread for me from now on.
honestpoet // April 13, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Sorry. I was in a mood. You should have seen the comments I wrote on several petitions I signed.
Jeff Ventura // April 13, 2007 at 8:47 pm
honest: no, seriously. You’re hired. Take it away.
honestpoet // April 13, 2007 at 9:15 pm
LOL. I think it’s already gone.
Believer // April 18, 2007 at 2:13 am
i kno ur beliefs are certain at this point… i just want to let u kno that im praying for u and even though u may not appreciate that, i pray to God one day you will understand His perfect plan
honestpoet // April 18, 2007 at 9:52 am
I’d pray for wisdom instead. You clearly need it.
I see you capitalize “God” but not the pronoun “I.” Is that supposed to show humility? Yet another example of religion’s ability to denigrate the individual. The funny thing is, y’all actually show no humility in YOUR certainty; you get quite a bit of ego strokes, I’m sure, by believing that you’re going to heaven and I’m the one who needs praying for, bound for hell as I am.
Well, if you want to spend your time and mental energy (of which you are clearly in short supply) that way, feel free. You are. Too bad you don’t realize what freedom truly means.
Clare // April 18, 2007 at 11:41 pm
I think Jeff and honest are forgetting Soviet Russia and Communist China? Atheists have forbidden Buddhists, Jews and Christians to worship or practice their religions in these countries. You can be imprisoned and executed in many countries just for being a Christian. Many American Atheists seem to forget this.
North America and Australia (and Antarctica)are the only continents were Christians are not persecuted today. The reason we fight for our freedom of religion in America is because we have come from places where religious beliefs are stiffled.
Sorry if I don’t applaud you for thinking that by being Atheist you are somehow above the fray.
honestpoet // April 19, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Clare, I’m hardly looking for applause. A little rationality would be nice, but I’ve learned not to get my hopes too high.
Nor have I forgotten about the secular dictatorships that have and do exist. Their existence hardly proves anything, except that human nature is such that we must always keep a close eye on our leaders.
I hardly think being atheist puts me above the fray. In fact, it plants me right in the middle of it. We have to fight for our freedom FROM religion. Remember, there’s both a protection of religious practices AND an injunction against establishment written into the first amendment.
American atheists don’t want to prevent anyone from performing whatever religious practices they see fit, as long as they harm no one. But we do NOT want to have mythological bullcrap shoved down our kids’ throats at school, and we don’t want religiously motivated legislation mandating what we do with our bodies or our lives.
Get it?
Clare // April 19, 2007 at 7:25 pm
You said this of atheists: “…at least we don’t threaten you with hell. Or beheading. ”
That’s where I felt you were claiming to be above the fray. The truth is Atheists kill people too, and I felt you were saying Atheists don’t kill anyone because of their religious beliefs. If you want to blame it on secular dictatorships and say that you as an individual Atheist don’t kill people then you have to allow people with different beliefs to blame their “beheadings” on some nameless faceless government entity also.
This is a double standard you have created.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you do not have the right to freedom FROM religion. Separation of Church and State is a separate issue. I believe that separation of Church and State is a good thing but it works both ways. You do not have the right to never have to see a temple, church, mosque, crucifix, cross etc. in public. At the same time I am not trying to force any of my religious beliefs on you. When you talk about religiously motivated legislation regarding your body and life - I will assume you mean victimless crimes? I really have no desire to control your personal life. I am not part of the Religious Right.
Your attitude toward teaching of mythology as “bullcrap” that is “shoved down our kids throats” shows a lack of respect for cultural history. I learned about Greek and Roman mythology in public schools. I also learned about Atheism and Buddhism in public school. Leaving the Bible out of our studies would be like leaving Shakespeare out. There are so many cultural references that people use; David & Goliath, a widows mite, the Good Samaritan. Throwing away all these stories would be like throwing away the Brothers Grimm, the Epic of Gilgamesh and Shakespeare.
Just so you GET where I’m coming from - I am an Artist. I have spent my entire life studying Comparative Religions and Art History. The oldest sculpture ever found was called the “Venus of Willendorf” a pagan fetish - a religious artwork. Humans are incredibly creative beings and the beauty of the human experience is seeing the way they express that creativity. The tragedy of human experience is watching humans trying to destroy the creativity they see in others. I believe that Religion, like Art is a magnificent channel for human expression. Art through the ages has been inspired by religious beliefs. Stifling, or cutting off or trying to stamp out religion has always backfired.
I realize some of your posts were in response to flaming Xtians but I believe we can all be more tolerant of others beliefs, and you can loose your condescending tone.
We are all in this together.
Clare // April 19, 2007 at 8:25 pm
I am not an anti-secularist, but even secularists agree that secularism is not mandated by the First Amendment. It’s a matter of sensibility, not law.
You seem to me to be an intelligent person who has stumbled into a non-religious cult. You say things that make it seem like they are feeding you the company line and you are just regurgitating it all over any Christian who crosses your path. You even seem to be lying in wait here for the next one? This fear of a Theocracy being established in America is part of their hype, their sensational propaganda. You seem sadly brainwashed to me L
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like that Bush got elected, I don’t like anything he’s done since he took office but I trust the American people enough not to let him turn this country into a Theocracy. (You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time.) I am not fooled. I am not part of the extreme right. I don’t endorse any of what they are trying to do. I am a Christian, (surprise, surprise) but I feel I am a voice of moderation, tolerance, forgiveness and acceptance. I expect to be treated the way I treat others. If your purpose in life is ambushing people with differing beliefs in chat rooms you should expect them to treat you the same way. This whole Us vs. Them thing is very disheartening. You should be a better example of what Atheists believe before you head out on the warpath. Mixing Atheism with politics is just a dangerous as mixing religion with politics. Please realize that your disbelief is seen as fanatical as others beliefs.
De-escalation is the answer.
Clare // April 19, 2007 at 9:35 pm
This should be my final post since I really don’t have much more to say on this matter and then we can agree to disagree. : )
The biggest part of being a Christian is how you behave in the world; how you treat other people, care for the poor and hungry. In a perfect world laws are created as an equalizer – to protect the weak. I don’t see it as my business to try to gain power so that I can change laws to my advantage. That said, I have an ancestor who signed the Declaration of Independence, (Button Gwinnett, if you’re interested) So I feel a great responsibility to uphold American values – Separation of Church and State & Freedom of Religion go hand in hand. They are counterparts, the “yin-yang” of the First Amendment that creates a perfect balance.
People who claim there is a Freedom FROM Religion have a basic misunderstanding of how this was meant to work. The First Amendment was never meant to remove religion from public life. All it says is: the State cannot establish a religion, (yin): we are free to exercise religion (yang)
Nowhere does it guarantee that you are free to prevent others from exercising.
I have a feeling we agree on the Separation of Church and State part? We could argue endlessly about Constitutional interpretation but I will take my familial politics as a Daughter of the American Revolution as an indicator that the philosophies I was raised on are in agreement with what the Founding Fathers intended. Well, there’s that - and the status quo.
I think it’s nice when people can express differing opinions, don’t you?
honestpoet // April 20, 2007 at 5:31 pm
Sigh.
I never said I can’t handle seeing religious symbols. I think that’s silly. Since they have no meaning to me, why would it bother me? Only someone still clinging to superstition would believe they have any power.
But I do object to having mythology passed off as FACT. No teacherl tried to tell you that Zeus cared about you and wanted you to do well in school.
At my children’s public school they pray before PTA meetings, they have to sing religious songs in the CHRISTMAS play, they offer the word “Jesus’s” as an example of a proper possessive ending in “s.”
If you’re an artist, you might be interested in Richard Dawkin’s book _Unweaving the Rainbow_, which is about how the universe AS IT IS can be approached with wonder and awe, and about how we need artists who can do that. That’s how I see things, and that’s what I’m doing with my work.
And no, I’m not part of any cult. Atheists are fiercely independent thinkers…that’s why we don’t take clerics’ or scripture’s word for anything, but do our best to investigate reality for ourselves.
And I’m a Daughter of the American Revolution myself, and born on the 4th of July, even. I, too, take that document pretty seriously, and I’ve read a bit about its interpretation. And if you think that there isn’t a concerted effort to create a theocracy here, you’re sorely mistaken.
No one in their right minds should want a theocracy. They never work, any more than enforced atheism does. Whatever created the human mind, it’s nature is such that it will not be pinned down or held back, at least not in some of us. Those who try to do so cause only suffering.
The virulence of the atheism you see is a direct result of the encroachment of religion into public life: prayer revivals in Jacksonville, FL funded by taxpayer money; the impediment to scientific research for what is a religiously motivated objection; the ongoing attempt to overturn Roe v. Wade; the obstacles to giving children realistic information about pregnancy and STDs.
Reasonable people who practice religion, who don’t want to have to hear people like me call it for the irrational superstition it is, ought to try to control the rogue elements in their subcultures, because they’re the root of the problem.
Next time you’re in a discussion and one of those stinking theocrats shows his colors, maybe you could call him on it, and remind him what America is really about.
Smiles from Heaven // April 21, 2007 at 2:03 am
To RIK and all others concerning this topic. I read your comment. I am new, so hang in there with me please. The topic came up in Bible class about the Jews and the covenant. Please read ROMANS chapter 11, verses 25. No one at my church was aware of this. Jesus blinded the Jews from the ability to accept Christ as Gods son for a time until the fullness of the gentiles come in. That is so cool!!!! I mean this is amazing. The lord did not want to leave us gentiles behind so he blinded Israel to himself until the gentiles could be grafted in. HEY, graft me!!!! I love it. I really want to read the story about this little 12 year old girl. God Bless Patty
fma7 // April 22, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Seems to be to be more about successful erasing of a childs own innocence and filling her full of talk about that fictional jesus character and then using her as a billboard for converts. There seems to be no level you people will drop to in order to recruit.
Clare // April 25, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Honest – Honestly, I’ll give you an example of why I think people who think like you are dangerous:
For nearly 50 years the Seal of the City of Los Angeles featured a pagan goddess at the center. No, that’s not the Virgin Mary, that’s Pomona a pagan goddess of agriculture. Now, the ACLU went to great trouble to have a minor element of the seal removed… a small cross in one of 6 small vignettes surrounding the goddess that was representative of the Spanish Missions and the Easter service that was held at the Hollywood Bowl for over 80 years. The ACLU had no problem with the towering pagan goddess in the center of the seal. Eventually the entire seal was changed and the cross was replaced by a star (another religious symbol) and Pomona was replaced by a Native American woman. Why the ACLU only went after the Christian element which was actually part of the history of Los Angeles and not the glaring giant pagan goddess who has no part in Los Angeles history at all, shows that they were specifically targeting Christianity and trying to rewrite history by blotting out this part of the cultural heritage of this region.
I guess you’re saying the ACLU is bothered and superstitious? But only bothered by Christian symbols not pagan ones?
If you study the history of civilization you will find the way to show you have conquered a people is to chop the heads off their idols, destroy their art, burn their places of worship, their libraries, erase their culture. The United States of America is supposed to be a safe haven for all cultures. I would resist being amalgamated into a cookie cutter citizen and at the same time grieve the loss of each cultures contributions to our society.
No teacher in any public school ever told me anything about Jesus.
In the school I went to we learned Christmas songs, Hanukkah songs and secular winter songs. Every year I remember being reminded that Winter Solistice was the longest day of the year. I’m not complaining – I think I grew up in a wonderful public school environment. I got all of my religious education at home and at church which I think is the appropriate place for it. If my earlier comments didn’t give it away I grew up in Los Angeles. The whole separation of church and state thing is working quite well here.
I guess you would complain if your children were forced to read a story about Jesus and Maria in public school? I on the other hand actually know people named Jesus and Maria. Jesus or Hay-Zeus - you get no sympathy from me for not wanting to hear this name mentioned. In Los Angeles you would be labeled an anti-immigrant racist.
What makes you think I need to read Richard Dawkins to see the universe as it is? It’s great that you’re seeing things this way – but why assume that if I’m a Christian and an artist that I am somehow artistically impaired? Again with the condecending tone. Who do you think you’re talking to? Am I an idiot just because I have a richer spiritual life than you?
Christians are non-conformists. They do not conform to the standards that this world sets. You may see Christians as blindly following something that you think is not real but as a Christian who has studied Buddhism (and other religions) I see the self disciple and inner soul searching and detachment from material possessions as a path to a purer experience of this life. I do not simply “accept scripture and obey” I study the Bible in depth and pull out pearls of wisdom. Buddism was great – but to me only a philosophy. The Bible is a continual source of knowledge and many people spend their entire lives deriving revelation and introspection from this book.
You may not be part of any cult but you are definitely spouting their propaganda. If you think you’re an original thinker then why do you sound exactly like every other Atheist with a hard-on for Christianity?
I never said I wanted a theocracy, but threatening to take peoples religion away is the best way to piss them off. Do you think maybe people like you are causing the reaction you are getting from the Religious Right?
I think I’m agreeing with you that tax payer money should not be spent on prayer revivals. I support stem cell research – I guess that’s what you’re talking about because you are being vague about “scientific research” I consider myself to be pro-life and pro-choice. We seem to agree on all issues. I guess the real problem you have is that you live in some backward town in the south. Please realize that most Christians agree with you on most issues. I am tired of ignorant people confusing me with some redneck retard that lives in their neighborhood just because we both call ourselves Christian.
Do you think all “Christians” are the same?
As far as “controlling the rogue element” goes. I belong to a group called Sojourners. They are behind the letter signed by 300 church leaders asking Bush not to go into Iraq. Jim Wallis of Sojourners wrote a book called “God’s Politics” where he points out that the popular Christian movements of today are ignoring poverty and focusing too much on minor issues like gay marriage. There are a lot of Christians that are embarrassed and fed up with the things that Geo Bush and the Neo-Cons are saying and doing in the name of Christianity, because they’re the root of the problem.
I don’t run in the same circles as those stinking theocrats so you’ll have to find someone else to deliver your message to them. In fact I’ve never met a single person that believes this country should be turned into a theocracy and that is why I think you are more than a little bit hysterical, fanatical, dangerous, or just an unwitting tool of the communists?
You stay vigilant… and so will I
honestpoet // April 28, 2007 at 1:40 am
An unwitting tool of the communists? Are you being funny now, pretending to be hysterical?
Sojourners is a good group. I was on their email list for a long time.
And I agree that the ACLU is misguided in almost all of their litigation regarding Christianity. It’s an embarrassment, really.
I disagree, however, when you label me and folks who think like me dangerous. Who’s on a high horse here? I suggest you reread that last post of yours for an examination of tone, and see who’s really being superior. A richer spiritual life? Come off it.
nuQler ostrich // June 9, 2007 at 6:27 am
For an interesting read, and an interview of the author see Gregg Braden’s The Divine Matrix. At Coast to Coast radio (google it) and go to archives at January 18, 2007.
He explains how science and religion are coming together as scientists discover the conscious nature of the Universe. And how western culture (Judeo-Christian) texts have been edited to erase the knowledge of the interconnectedness that the “primitive practices” have always lived by.
There are three segments of the interview and links to real or wma files.I think you will all appreciate te scientific evidence of a “force” of interligence that is the matrix of all matter. As Nobel Physicist Max Planck described it.
As we think, so shall we be.
Ortenae // July 11, 2007 at 8:31 pm
I saw you guys were talking about evolution some while back. I didn’t read all the way to the bottom of the page, though. That could have taken a while. I noticed that nobody…as far as I read…mentioned that there are two types of evolution. The micro and macro. Microevolution has been proven, but macro, being the jump from one species to another, has not. There’s been a few hostile comments in here, so I just want to let everyone know that I’m not attacking anybody! Please don’t shoot any nasty words my way! I just want to know a little about both the Christian and atheists views on how micro and macroevolution fit into their religions…or non-religions. lol And any other religions can join in too. I’m just interested. You guys who believe in evolution, why do you believe in something that hasn’t very much strong evidence in its favor. You guys who don’t, why?
honestpoet // March 3, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Ostrich, that interconnectedness can be experienced first hand, and it’s what makes magic possible. My husband, as one of his hobbies, is an avid audience for the science of particle physics. Once a math prodigy, he’s fallen behind after almost two decades pursuing a medical profession, nor can he afford the latest basement accelerator (ha…they spent the equivalent of the GNP of Nepal on the machine to find the last missing piece of the puzzle, the particle responsible for gravity known as the Higgs boson), so he’s content reading the latest and explaining it to me in English. What he tells me explains what I’ve intuited. It’s beautiful, the fabric of the universe, and I don’t understand why, to the religious, it is apparently not enough.
Ortenae, it’s the result of creationist propaganda that you operate under the mistaken belief that there is evidence lacking in support of evolution. If you do the reading, as in, from books, not the internet or newsletters or church-supplied pamphlets, you’ll discover there’s real science, real evidence, in support of evolution, including the emergence of new species. It’s based on random mutation and natural selection. It’s simple, beautiful, even, albeit seemingly cruel. As the naturalist Annie Dillard commented on nature’s way of making a whole bunch of trains and setting them loose on the tracks, keeping those that don’t crash and calling that the schedule: “It’s a helluva way to run a railroad.” But it’s cruel only if you imagine there’s someone in charge; it’s cruel only with the intent of a designer. Have you seen the life-cycle of a sea-louse? It’s based on rape; the male cements a harem of kidnapped females under a rock, where their thousands of babies eat them from the inside out, until they break out of their mothers’ broken, empty shells to swim free and start the hellish cycle all over again. Is this the result of a just, loving God’s design? How much better for my spirit to imagine that no one intended for this to exist.
The concept of evolution bothers people because it means that old book, with all its errors, is just a book written by human beings grasping at understanding and control. It’s a work of literature rather than divinity, as are all scripture. The sooner we get on with understanding THAT as a species, the better our chances for survival.
Casey // April 18, 2008 at 11:20 pm
I just don’t understand how smart, well educated people could be blind enough to believe in such a stupid idea as god. I especially feel bad for religious figures, such as priests and rabbis who have literally wasted their whole life on nothing.
tasha // November 10, 2008 at 11:13 pm
shes cool
ArtistMuse // November 26, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Are you people for real? After reading these posts on a site referencing a talented artist who believes that her talent and inspiration comes from a source she admittedly can’t explain, I find it difficult to believe that either side of this “discussion” really has a valid claim to existence. Doesn’t seem like much of an existence to me to argue an point that can never be proved to a party that has no interest in changing their opinion.
How quick people are to offer “explanations” for her talent. Her work is amazing. Isn’t that enough? Have you listened to Mozart and attempted to explain it away by his training or the amount of money and lifestyle he must have lived to acquire such an ability? If this girl has a muse that inspires her work, then … just let her believe. No one is asking you to believe in God. Is it too much to simply enjoy the art?
And for the blogger who voiced her opinion that, after one too many psych classes, she wandered about this young girl’s male influences, wow… care to answer that question yourself? Interesting the first place one’s mind takes them.
Inspiring work no matter what your beliefs. Gives me some hope in creativity, passion and humanity. Whereas the posts here on this site leave me with a bit more realistic perspective. Don’t lose focus.